English Teamwork 2 planning and discussion

[Sascha Claus]

Hello again,

long time no read! But the people of Clydesgow are seeing big changes: route numbers on the high-speed line have changed. Even numbers are now used for trains turning left and odd numbers for trains turning right.

ICE1x remains reserved for the bundle of routes that branches out from 3rd Jcn
ICE2 is running every 15min between Clydesgow and 2nd Jcn for future extension to a big city at the mouth of the River Clyde
ICE3x is newly reserved for the routes that are going turn right at 2nd Jcn, which are all routes to Montspoor
ICE4 is running every 30min between Clydesgow and Oban for extension to the Capital of Whales
ICE6 is running every 30min between Clydesgow and Oban for extension to Jirkov

ICE4+ICE6 form an 15min interval from Clydesgow to Oban. Then there is an hourly Thalys to Oban (ready for extension to the Capital of Whales) and an hourly Thalys and two hourly TGVs to 2nd Jcn. Timetables for these still need some fine-tuning.

After some delays and sneak previews, Version 40 has finally been uploaded. Clydeshire Airport station is slowly becoming a white sea, with all those ICE trains pausing there.

Also included is a new log file bahn_73.log. which is free from “Trailing turnout passed in facing direction” messages from Montspoor, so that we can now see these messages from other regions and the “Signal counter overflow” and “Signal counter was already 0” messages.

[1993matias]

Hello,

Nice to see a new version!

Hi,

I would like to prefer to keep the BD since it has a built-in wheelchair lift.
Alternatively, half the consists could be with your vehicles, and half the consists could be with my vehicles.

I would like to keep the DB since it doesn’t need a wheelchair lift for it’s low floor. But I’m going to repaint a BD into my colours, so that there is more 2nd class and less baggage area. If we have alternating consists and alternating endpoints (Cw and Cc), then one station sees only my trains and the other station sees only your trains.

That's a deal, I'll make sure to add the missing IC trains as soon as the necessary wagons have been painted

This line in addition to IC6 which runs Redbanks - Rhennir every two hours, and continues to Pembroke every four hours. Rhennir - Pembroke is not electrified.

I feel the urge to steal the Rhennir trains and lead them into Warstones. And run trains connecting with the Pembroke trains.

Please, steal them They end in Rhennir 10, 14, 18, and 22:47, and start from there 9, 13, 17, and 21:30

For the ICE extension eastwards, maybe there could be one over the mountains along the IC4 route? Either replacing an IC4 or in addition to them. IC4 is 2h07m in doing the trip. The line is fully electrified.

Good idea! But I won’t have an electric ICE-TD available to cross the diesel gap after north of Cairndow, so it would be either diesel or with an electric supply locomotive added.
Maybe go down to a train every two hours:

Code: Alles auswählen

05:00 / 07:00 / 09:00 / 11:00 / 13:00 / 15:00 Clydesgow
07:00 / 09:00 / 11:00 / 13.00 / 15:00 / 17:00 Cairndow
        10:30 /                         18:30 Rhennir
        11:40 /                         19:40 Pembroke
09:40 /       /       /       / 17:40 Selden -> Bordele
      /       / 12:40 Coates via mountains
      /       /       / 14:30 Rhennir

Southbound, the later Pembroke train would leave ~13:00 and the later Bordele train would leave Bordele ~15:00. Only problem now is that the Rhennir train has to spend the night there, unless you can do something useful with it during the afternoon and before noon.

See my updated timetable suggestions. I am not sure if the timings in Cairndow are realistic, considering local traffic around the station. A tilde ~ in the time means an estimated time

Code: Alles auswählen

ICE 30  ICE 32  ICE 34  ICE 36  ICE 38  ICE 40

05:00 / 07:00 / 09:00 / 11:00 / 13:00 / 15:00 Clydesgow
06:48 / 08:48 / 10:48 / 12:48 / 14:48 / 16:48 Cairndow
07:16 / 09:16 / 11:16 / 13:16 / 15:16 / 17:16 Redbanks
      / 10:27 /         14:27         / 18~30 Rhennir
      / 11:29 /                       / 19~30 Pembroke
08:50 /       /               / 16:50         Selden
      /       / 13~15                         Coates via mountains
12:38 /                       / 20:38         Bordele

And for the return trips:

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      / 05:49                 /         13:49 Bordele
      /       /                 14~35         Coates via mountains
      / 10:05 /               /         18:05 Selden
06~35 /       /         12~35         /       Pembroke
07~50 /       / 11~50   13~50         /       Rhennir
08:46 / 10:39 / 12:39 / 14:39 / 16:39 / 18:39 Redbanks
09:22 / 11:15 / 13:15 / 15:15 / 17:15 / 19:15 Cairndow
11:15 / 13:15 / 15:15 / 17:15 / 19:15 / 21:15 Clydesgow

ICE 31  ICE 33  ICE 35  ICE 37  ICE 39  ICE 41

The train numbers are mostly for my own use inside Montspoor.
Maybe ICE 35/36 could continue to/from Warstones instead of overnighting in Rhennir? Although it's quite a detour for through passengers to go all that way... Even more crazy could be Rhennir - Warstones - Pembroke

[Sascha Claus]

Hiho,

About the nameless half from you IR1: There is space for a train leaving Willey to cross the river every hour at :28 towards you. Arriving from you would be best at :05. Every hour until Flornes, continuing to Bordele a few times per day.

so an hourly IR23 to northeast – Willey – Flornes and an hourly IR24 to east, details to be specified later. Is the line electrified?

Montspoor Rilways Schedule Department are very "busy" eating cake and napping, so no timetable suggestions for the ICE yet.

Mail trains are very welcome - as soon as Montspoor Mail Management (MMM) has built mail facilities.

It will probably end as one coupled pair of TGV La Poste Airport – Clydesgow Seagate – high-speed-line – split en route and an PIC Clydesgow sorting centre – Clydesgow Seagate – Coates, with an exchange of roll containers like these in Clydesgow Seagate. The PIC will be operated with something like the British 325 or the German Parcel InterCity.

Times would obviously be at night, maybe with some some trains during the day (like Mercitalia Fast or UPS Rail Express).

See my updated timetable suggestions. I am not sure if the timings in Cairndow are realistic, considering local traffic around the station. A tilde ~ in the time means an estimated time

Seems like ICE36 will travel shortly after the 14:27 arrival in Rhennir? Then that IC could be cut to Redbanks and leave this run to ICE36, which would continue the Warstones and come back to Redbanks, where the IC would take over again for the way back to Coates.

Although it's quite a detour for through passengers to go all that way... Even more crazy could be Rhennir - Warstones - Pembroke

Surely some Interrailers and other trainspotters would prefer to go the long way round.

[1993matias]

Quick reply to ask for a clarification:

Seems like ICE36 will travel shortly after the 14:27 arrival in Rhennir? Then that IC could be cut to Redbanks and leave this run to ICE36

Which ICE36?

[Sascha Claus]

Seems like ICE36 will travel shortly after the 14:27 arrival in Rhennir? Then that IC could be cut to Redbanks and leave this run to ICE36

Which ICE36?

The train ICE 36 ~11:00 Clydesgow -> ~12:48 Cairndow -> 13:16 Redbanks -> 14:27 Rhennir, where it would come somewhat close to the 14:47 arrival.

[1993matias]

Yes, but you mentioned ICE36 twice which confused me. Which IC could be cut? What do you mean the ICE36 will travel shortly after the arrival?

Sorry, just want to avoid mistakes when making my timetables

[Sascha Claus]

Yes, but you mentioned ICE36 twice which confused me.

Maybe I had a knot in my head and was confused myself. Best to just drop my suggestion and focus on the express parcel distribution centre (formerly known as mail sorting centre).

[1993matias]

Quick update on the ICE schedules:

Code: Alles auswählen

ICE 30  ICE 32  ICE 34  ICE 36  ICE 38  ICE 40

05:00 / 07:00 / 09:00 / 11:00 / 13:00 / 15:00 Clydesgow
06:48 / 08:48 / 10:48 / 12:48 / 14:48 / 16:48 Cairndow
07:16 / 09:16 / 11:16 / 13:16 / 15:16 / 17:16 Redbanks
      / 10:27 /         14:03         / 18:02 Rhennir
      / 11:29 /                       / 19:09 Pembroke
08:50 /       /               / 16:50         Selden
      /       / 13:19                         Coates via mountains
12:38 /                       / 20:38         Bordele

Code: Alles auswählen

      / 05:49                 /         13:49 Bordele
      /       /                 14:36         Coates via mountains
      / 10:05 /               /         18:05 Selden
06:45 /       /         12:53         /       Pembroke
07:56 /       / 11:58   14:00         /       Rhennir
08:46 / 10:39 / 12:46 / 14:46 / 16:46 / 18:39 Redbanks
09:22 / 11:15 / 13:22 / 15:22 / 17:22 / 19:15 Cairndow
11:15 / 13:15 / 15:15 / 17:15 / 19:15 / 21:15 Clydesgow

ICE 31  ICE 33  ICE 35  ICE 37  ICE 39  ICE 41

The times are basically final from my end, unfortunately there is some quite tight stops in Redbanks. Hopefully three minutes is enough to change direction on an ICE-TD...! I hope the :22 arrivals in Cairndow don't throw your schedule completely off track. Otherwise I will have to rework the schedules with earlier departures and longer dwell times in Redbanks instead.
Montspoor will paint a Montspoor themed ICE-TD soon

- - - - - - -

Parcel trains: I imagine major distribution centres in Redbanks, Coates, Flornes, and Bordele. From there trains depart for minor distribution centres locally. How often would you send national mail service parcel trains? And how often the private express courier services?

Container trains are are also welcome, there is a container terminal almost ready south of Coates. Maybe more terminals will appear over time throughout the country, but let's focus on Coates first since the infrastructure is almost ready. The easiest would be for you to let me know the desired schedule at the border station (Farris), then I will make sure there are trains available at those times.

[Sascha Claus]

’n Ahmdchen,

Hopefully three minutes is enough to change direction on an ICE-TD...!

Tight; unless we use it to switch drivers, for reasons of route knowledge, laws or whatever, then it is plenty.

Montspoor will paint a Montspoor themed ICE-TD soon

Will we see advertising liveries as well, promulgating the joys of a seaside holiday or a mountain retreat?

Parcel trains: I imagine major distribution centres in Redbanks, Coates, Flornes, and Bordele. From there trains depart for minor distribution centres locally.

Flornes and Bordele could be served by a train from Torkham. Redbanks could be served from Torkham either via Coates or via Cairndow; now it depends on how many non-capital centres are directly connected to each other, and how much goes via the capitals. Which ties in with the next question …

How often would you send national mail service parcel trains? And how often the private express courier services?

How much mail and parcels can be expected between cities of this size? We might have to roll a dice.

Container trains are are also welcome, there is a container terminal almost ready south of Coates. […] The easiest would be for you to let me know the desired schedule at the border station (Farris), then I will make sure there are trains available at those times.

There is currently one container terminal between Cumnock and New Cumnock, ready to serve hourly trains to northwest (Castle Douglas and Whales), northeast (Dumfries and Taynuilt), east (Clydesgow), southeast, southwest and west (Otčina). And another hourly container train Otčina – Clydesgow passing through.

I’m planning the same at the other major border crossings, of which Torkham and Cairndow would be important to you: Clydesgow hourly to Coates; Torkham hourly to Grangemouth, Quainton, Arrochar and Tarbet, due east, Coates, Cairndow, due west, Oban and Cumnock each. Cairndow hourly to Redbanks, Coates and all other directions.

Maybe an additional route pair Inverfyne to Redbanks and Inverfyne to Coates, each hourly? Or all container routes across this border only every two hours? Additional hinterland connections from my ports to directly to the smaller terminals in Montspoor?

[Sascha Claus]

G’d ev’ning,
not much new work in the teamwork this week , but …

How often would you send national mail service parcel trains? And how often the private express courier services?

… I’ve done an extensive literature review (i. e. I googled for less than an hour ). My local airport mentions 350 lorry movements a day. If we assume that means 350 articulated lorries to and fo from the public roads, then the air cargo hub at Clydeshire Airport will dispense at least 8 750m-long freight trains into the world. If the trains are shorter, because they ought to be fast, then at least 13. That should be enough for at least two fast freight trains per day from my airport to anywhere else.

Regarding the less airy packets, the noise emission study (official documents tend to be great for this) for a Hermes-HUB (Hauptumschlagbasis – seems they like puns) in Löhne mentions 730 lorry movements, 500 during the day 200 in the night. That’s 17 trains of 750m length or 26 trains of 500m length for a capital hub. (This youtube video shows a sample with places for 80 containers = 40 articulated lorries between the Rhine-Ruhr-Area and Berlin, of which 65 are used.)

Now we have to spread this out into all available directions. Since Coates is missing the north, you might get away with half that amount. Then this has to be split between neighbouring capital centres and smaller ‘satellites’. Let’s make it 24 trains per day (easy to calculate), split 50:50, then that’s 12 trains to other ‘capital centres’.

From Clydesgow, that could be a 2×½ train to Coates and Cairndow each, 2x1 train to each of five other directions (including Whales).

Add the same amount from Torkham and Cairndow to Coates, that’s 4 trains per day (about 16 to 24 elements in length) via Farris and … 2 trains per day via Strone (from Cairndow) and Willey (from Torkham) each? Or 4 shorter trains per day via the diesel line?

By scaling this up according to market share, we need the same amount of trains for UPS and DPD each, for FedEx and TNT combined and all that again for DHL. That would be 16 trains per day between Clydesgow and Coates alone, but if we had brown, white, purple-orange, orange and yellow trains, that colourful look would befit a BAHN layout.

How many different companies do you want to operate in Montspoor? And which colours? And that are only the packet trains, not including the mail …

[1993matias]

Good evening too,

Hopefully three minutes is enough to change direction on an ICE-TD...!

Tight; unless we use it to switch drivers, for reasons of route knowledge, laws or whatever, then it is plenty.

Changing drivers is as given with such a short turnaround time. Three minutes it is then. The final schedule should be in the schedules folder. Simply look for the ICE trains in the relevant timetables: IC6, IC4, and R67.

There is an ICE-TD in Montspoor livery ready in the user-defined graphics folder. It was a lot of work, so the paint centre politely asked for no more liveries

- - - - - - - -

Some loose thoughts about Intermodal goods trains in Montspoor

In this world with a lot of lorries and other freight by rail, wouldn't it make sense to have centralized intermodal terminals instead of each company their own hub? That could simplify operations a bit. In any case a train carrying lorries would probably only be viable over longer distances than a train carrying wagonloads directly from producer to consumer via private/industrial sidings. But then again, this all depends on the policies of Montspoor and the neighbouring countries.

Two intermodal trains per day per carrier does sound realistic, but 16 per day sounds like a lot.
So I did a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation for Denmark with the following result: 2000 lorries cross the Great Belt Bridge (main east-west connection) every day per direction. If a train can carry 40 lorries, that's 50 trains per day of lorries in east-west traffic.
Granted, not all lorry traffic makes sense on a train if the first and last mile is by lorry - especially if the origin or destination is far from a terminal.

12 trains per day each from Coates to Clydeshire, Inverfyne, Whales, and Otcina/Fatherland suddenly sounds more sensible even if in addition to mixed freight trains and block trains. But that's still 48 trains per day from Coates plus all the other freight trains! That is a lot, maybe too much? What if a 50% market share is enough, so we only need 24 trains per day?


Parcel trains (for the national mail service) could probably be done with 2-4 nightly trains between each pair of central distribution centres. From there they would be further distributed locally the next day/night. High(er) speed trains could use the high speed network at night to arrive faster, but the speed limit within Montspoor would be limited to 200 kph at most. Clydesgow - Coates could be done in three hours (Coates - Redbanks in 1:30 on a good day)

[Sascha Claus]

Good morning,

There is an ICE-TD in Montspoor livery ready in the user-defined graphics folder. It was a lot of work, so the paint centre politely asked for no more liveries

are you referring to the folder on your Google Drive? Looks very standard here. Did you upload the right file(s)?

In this world with a lot of lorries and other freight by rail, wouldn't it make sense to have centralized intermodal terminals instead of each company their own hub? That could simplify operations a bit.

In the real world, the powers that be generally want competition between different companies. In the BAHN world, some powers want colourful trains of different companies.

In any case a train carrying lorries would probably only be viable over longer distances than a train carrying wagonloads directly from producer to consumer via private/industrial sidings.

I was referring only to express goods via special cars (like old PIC) and containers (like new PIC). Rolling highways and other intermodal trains will be found at a later date, but likely without mail lorries.

Two intermodal trains per day per carrier does sound realistic, but 16 per day sounds like a lot.

Well … Hermes has 9 Logistik-Centers in Germany (81 mio. pop.), that’s 1 for 9 mio people, and not all as large as Löhne. I didn’t find lorry counts for the smaller ones, but they are the same size. Though the numbers for Löhne might be the theoretical and permitted maximum.

But on another note: the hall of the logistics part is 260m long. You can fit a whole half-train along the side!

(Link to bigger picture.)

So I did a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation for Denmark with the following result: 2000 lorries cross the Great Belt Bridge (main east-west connection) every day per direction. If a train can carry 40 lorries, that's 50 trains per day of lorries in east-west traffic.

Including transit (which might be significant in the north-south direction in Montspoor ⛴ ). But transit wouldn’t count in the trains to/from the local parcel distribution centre.

12 trains per day each from Coates to Clydeshire, Inverfyne, Whales, and Otcina/Fatherland suddenly sounds more sensible even if in addition to mixed freight trains and block trains. But that's still 48 trains per day from Coates plus all the other freight trains! That is a lot, maybe too much? What if a 50% market share is enough, so we only need 24 trains per day?

Trains to Inverfyne, Whales, and Otcina/Fatherland could be routed through the No-Man’s-Land between Farris and Torkham/Inverchorachan and so byass me. However, my two-track mainline through Torkham will certainly be able to handle this, especially if I add some goods bypass lines around the cities.

But if you prefer 24 trains per day, that’s perfectly fine as well. It’s supposed to be fun, after all. How would these trains be spread across the day (approximately)? How many in the night, how many at day?

Parcel trains (for the national mail service) could probably be done with 2-4 nightly trains between each pair of central distribution centres. From there they would be further distributed locally the next day/night.

2–4 trains = 1–2 train pairs (out and back in) would be enough for the mail, but I’d prefer some additional trains during the day for parcels.

Final question: is anyone interested to build? I’m now hugging the network for some time (since before the current build schedule even begins )

[1993matias]

Hello,

Good morning,

There is an ICE-TD in Montspoor livery ready in the user-defined graphics folder. It was a lot of work, so the paint centre politely asked for no more liveries

are you referring to the folder on your Google Drive? Looks very standard here. Did you upload the right file(s)?

Yes, I just tried to re-upload them. Feel free to check again.

[... long message about intermodal and transit freight ...]

About freight trains in general; I will make space for two freight trains per hour on each of the current border crossings (Farris and Strone), these slots can then be used by any type of freight train capable of 100 kph. At night there is space for many more trains though. On the mainlines in Montspoor I expect two freight train slots per hour. Any more will need several overtakings on the way leading to ineffective travel times.

About the lorry transport specifically; smaller logistics companies may not need whole trains for themselves, but may rather buy a few spots on some train already running. Real life example would be the intermodals going to northern Norway or the car trains to Sylt. Larger logistics companies would probably have their own intermodals going between hubs (DHL, Bring, DSV and more).
I think a 50-50 split would work fine with the mixed intermodals going at fixed intervals (say, every hour or two hours), and the "private" intermodals going exactly when needed - probably at night mostly.
We could start with these "private" intermodals if you prefer. Send them my way and I will find space for them when they reach the border.

About transit freight from harbour terminals: Gothenburg in Sweden sends 60% of the arriving containers onwards by train. This in combination with other cargo results in up to 70 (!) freight trains per day for destinations as close by as 100 kms (!). While Montspoor is not as big as Sweden, and has no single main harbour, and while Clydeshire has a navigable river connection (maybe?), I still think my estimates of freight traffic may have been quite low...
In any case, I think we should take one step at a time. There is definitely capacity from me for two 100 kph freight trains per hour, and with more passing loops there will be capacity for more if needed.

At some point I would like to define what natural resources are available in Montspoor, and what would need to be imported by block trains. Forests are plentiful, but who knows about mineral deposits or sand for construction etc. This is not a question for now, but rather food for thought.

Final question: is anyone interested to build? I’m now hugging the network for some time (since before the current build schedule even begins )

Don't worry about it. At the moment I don't build much, and what I build I am prepared to paste into the main file whenever it's my turn. But I hope to be able to introduce mainline service on the line east out of Coates Continental to Flornes and onwards to Bordele. Maybe I'll have more time by the end of November, but feel free to hog the build schedule 3-6 days in advance if it's free

Parcel trains (for the national mail service) could probably be done with 2-4 nightly trains between each pair of central distribution centres. From there they would be further distributed locally the next day/night.

2–4 trains = 1–2 train pairs (out and back in) would be enough for the mail, but I’d prefer some additional trains during the day for parcels.

Sure, send them my way. Whenever they reach my border I will find an onwards schedule and destination. There will be major hubs in Coates, Redbanks (near Strone), (maybe) Flornes, and Bordele, all ready to receive international mail.

[1993matias]

PS: New (old) vehicles from Montspoor can be found in the user graphics folder on the Drive. They will probably be used at some point on the layout.

[Sascha Claus]

Mahlzeit,

Yes, I just tried to re-upload them. Feel free to check again.

looks better now! There is also a newly-liveried ICE decorating the big stabling yard west of my airport station.

[... long message about intermodal and transit freight ...]

I assume you read and understood all of it. I will ask some questions later and only upload a new version if you answer most of them satisfyingly!

About freight trains in general; I will make space for two freight trains per hour on each of the current border crossings (Farris and Strone), these slots can then be used by any type of freight train capable of 100 kph.

Sounds like a good start! And if that doesn’t suffice, we can do the thing that’s all the rage in German planning circles (to which no politician ever listens): upgrade secondary lines for higher capacity and route goods trains along them. 100kph is quite slow compared to a 220kph Intercity, but fits better between 160kph Interregios/Regional-Expresses with more stops.

On the Great Northern Railway (via Torkham and Farris), there are currently no parallel, slower lines in sight; but for Strone, some goods trains could go via Henley-in-Arden, Camrose and Trimsaran or Pitetrail (yellow). Would require either electrification or diesel or steam haulage, though.

New diagonal lines (dashed yellow) from Holt Heath to Bromsgrove and from Wourcester-on-Fyne to Redditch and Studley are already planned. There are also harbours in the small towns north of the City of Inverfyne that will take some ships and send some trains (Kidderminster, Stourbridge and Warstones, maybe also Dudley and Wednesbury).

Inverfyne-mainline-diagonals.png

I think a 50-50 split would work fine with the mixed intermodals going at fixed intervals (say, every hour or two hours), and the "private" intermodals going exactly when needed - probably at night mostly.

If I remember correctly, private intermodal trains are counted in trains per day (per operator), even if the alternatives are tolled alpine roads. That should fit in, unless someone is going to heavily toll his roads to get the lorries onto trains.

While Montspoor is not as big as Sweden, and has no single main harbour, and while Clydeshire has a navigable river connection (maybe?), I still think my estimates of freight traffic may have been quite low...

Does Coates have the same harbour capacity as Gothenburg? If not, you might get away with fewer trains.

But I didn’t think about the river yet and whether it is navigable that far upstream. That also depends on the transshipment capacity of the harbour at the mouth of the River Clyde, which doesn’t belong to me.

In any case, I think we should take one step at a time.

Agreed.

At some point I would like to define what natural resources are available in Montspoor, and what would need to be imported by block trains. Forests are plentiful, but who knows about mineral deposits or sand for construction etc.

I’m planning some small open-cast coal mines near Cumnock (as in real Scotland), but I have no idea what to do with that coal, apart from maybe some steel mills in Clydesgow. English-speaking countries in Europe haven’t been well known for resource extraction for a few decades, so it’s difficult to find some examples to imitate.

I’ll likely do some large-scale im- and export of iron and iron ore as energy storage, as is might be available in the real world in a few years/decades/….

Don't worry about it. At the moment I don't build much, […]

Hey, there are other Builders registered in the schedule, one of them even active until a few weeks ago!

Final question: what do you all think about an undersea railway tunnel from ca. 4416/12064 to ca. 1216/12064? Together with a peninsula from there to the western end of the world, that would offer additional destinations for international and night trains.